Marilyn Monroe was much more than the decorative blonde. She was self taught and self made. Educated on Oscar Wilde , Shakespeare, and poetry
She shook Hollywood when she walked out to start her own film company
I talk to Michelle Morgan, author of The Girl, The birth of an unlikely feminist about Marilyns trailblazing life and unlikely feminism
Marilyn Monroe was much more than the decorative blonde. She was self taught and self made. Educated on Oscar Wilde , Shakespeare, and poetry
She shook Hollywood when she walked out to start her own film company
I talk to Michelle Morgan, author of The Girl, The birth of an unlikely feminist about Marilyns trailblazing life and unlikely feminism
Hi guys. Welcome back to my podcast. It was so good to have ed and meta Shaw on my show. That was completely amazing because you know, to finally talk to people on the show that have actually seen the real Marilyn and hung out with her, but I'm so excited about today because I have got Michelle Morgan back and it's, we S I love her, but also I feel like when I talk to her, she just knows everything about Marilyn. I mean, I think if Merryman row was alive, she'd have to call Michelle and go, what was I doing on February, 1952 at 9:00 PM? And Michelle would know, but the part of the reason I wanted Michelle back is because this book called the girl, Marilyn Monroe, the seven year itch. And the birth of an unlikely feminist, I have to say is probably, would I say, it's my favorite, but come Marilyn, do you know what it could be? Because as I've got older and I've seen the world change, people say to me, you know, she was a poet, she was this. And you've got other people say, Oh, no, she's a dumb blonde who don't really know it's all the Kennedys. Whereas this book kind of tells the truth. It kind of says, yeah, she did do these things. She did play a dumb blonde. Yes. She was a poet. She was an unlikely feminist because she was doing things before we look at actresses now, and we're saying, look, they've got their own production companies. And they're, they're, they're the bosses of their companies. And Merlin was doing this back in the fifties before anybody else, but she's not really known for being a feminist. Whereas this book, Michelle, I'm going to introduce you before. I just do my own podcast raving about this book, but it's true, right. This book is just addresses all of that.
Speaker 2:It does, it does. And that was the, um, that was, you know, what I really wanted to do when, when I first started it and what my editor wanted to do is to sort of get below the surface and argue the point of why Marilyn was a, a trailblazer and, you know, had girl power and all that kind of thing. So, yeah, it was a brilliant book to, to write and probably, I mean, I love all of my book space, definitely upset with my favorites, for sure.
Speaker 1:This is going to sound really not that you weren't so well known when this came out, but I kind of wish that this book was coming out now, do you know, what, do you know what I mean by that? Because I think now with the rise of the whole me too movement, and I know you addressed that here with the Weinsteins and things like that, but I just feel that as you have grown as an author and you, you know, people really know more about you now. And like, when you make a book, you can see the Marilyn community go crazy with your new book coming out. The, the, the Marilyn meets the queen about her time in England. People are so excited. Like we want this year to end for two reasons. One because of COVID, but also because we get your book next year, but this, this book, the girl, I really feel like it kind of went under the radar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's it. I think that, I think that there was a great opportunity to, um, publicize it with the whole me too movement and it, and it didn't really happen. And so yeah, with that, um, you know, I'm disappointed, but the good thing is that, you know, because it's, it's still in print and everything, there's always time for the people to, to see it now and to discover it now and see what, you know, what it says, because I do think that it's an important book, and I'm not saying that just because I'm the author saying that because you know, the subjects that it has in the book and, you know, if people want to read it, that would be absolutely fantastic. But it's interesting what you say about how everyone's going crazy for Marilyn met the queen. And I was thinking about this the other day that it's just in the, in the past, maybe the past year things seem to have gone. I dunno, just like through the roof, really, in terms of, you know, people's excitement over my book, I still have it with my novel as well. And it's just, it's really quite mind-blowing to me. I don't know what's what's happened, what kind of shift has gone on, but, um, yeah, I'm happy to go with it.
Speaker 1:I will say, I think there's a shift in thinking, um, people's way of thinking now. I mean, the world's moving so much, but I, there was a recently a debate on a Marilyn group and they were saying, you know, Oh, Marilyn's known for all this horrible stuff. And we wish she was known for, you know, um, her intellect and her and the thing she did do. And, and I kind of felt well, I think she's getting known as that. Cause then I see, I walk around as Marilyn, quite a lot of the time, not so much in COVID times, but, and people have come up to me and said like, um, you know, Mary mom Rose, she wasn't a dumb blonde. You know, she, I read these poems of her. I read this about her or, and I think, I think that side's getting out. So people are trying to, to find more of that side of her. And it's funny because the first part in your book is saying it's insulting for a memory to be either a dumb blonde or a victim because she was neither. And I love that part of your book because I think that's the two camps that she usually sits in. Usually here, like she was dumb, blonde slept with the Kennedys or, Oh, Paul Marylene. She was so lost. And, and that middle part of the real Marylene gets lost.
Speaker 2:I agree. And I it's something that I, it, it makes me really cross when everybody, not everybody, but when people say, Oh, Marilyn was such a victim, she was a victim of this and a victim of that and a victim of powerful men. And I go, well, how do you make that out? Because this is an act isn't actually a woman who stood up to powerful men to Sarah left Sonic at 20th century Fox and Harry Cohn. And all of those people and said, look, this is what I want to do. You know, take it or leave it, you know, get stuffed. If you don't appreciate me, me, she walked out on her contract, but didn't say, can you have 1954, the mid 1950s? And she, she didn't care. She was like, well, this isn't making me happy anymore. I'm going, I'm going to do my own thing. And if that's not standing up to powerful men, then I don't know what is quite frankly,
Speaker 1:I'm so glad you addressed that point because people who are listening that are not maximum row fans, or don't know the history of minimum row, what you're talking about here is in 19, was it 55 or 54
Speaker 2:At the very end of 1954? Right?
Speaker 1:So the very end of 1954, which let's be honest, women in the fifties were usually meant to stay at home and be the, you know, the housewife and all you are loose woman. There was something, there was the two choices in life really. Um, and Marilyn was in a studio system that was like an iron fist. And you know, I'm not saying it's not brave to stand up for yourself now, but we have so much more support. Men are more liberal than they were in those days. But Marilyn did this when she was at the height of her fame. Gentlemen, prefer blondes rather have no returns, seven year itch, and suddenly said, I'm done. I'm done with playing the blonde stereotype. I don't want to wear a pair of tights anymore. Just be a goat. And I'm off to New York to go to the actor studio, set up my own production company. I mean, that is immense. That's immense. And then they're going, well, you'll never work in this town again. And she said, so be it. I mean, I don't know if I'd be that brave and I'm a woman in 2021 and I didn't think I'd do that.
Speaker 2:No, no. I agree. I mean, she, she was having reporters laugh in her face. And when she did the press conference to announce the formation of Marilyn Monroe production, people were laughing at hanging of it, the articles that came out afterwards, they're like, you know, what kind of dope pushy from everything kind of a thing. What is she on about how an ask? And this woman become a series actress and producer own movies. When she's just a fluffy little actress from Hollywood, people were laughing in our face and she basically outwards anyway said, I don't care. I mean, in which you, you know, she maybe did have, um, reservations or sadness or whatever, but outwardly she just kept marching forward. And, you know, going after what, what she wanted, which was, uh, a brand new, great contract for 20th century Fox and the ability to make her own stuff with her own company and with other companies. So she, she just went straight for it. She didn't care what people said, and it was so brave. And you're right about like, you know, us in 2021, I wouldn't have the guts to do that. It's just, it's remarkable what she did. And, and, and some people might say, Oh, well, she was really rich. He could afford to just walk up, but she actually wasn't hugely rich at that time. So it was a very, very brave thing to do. And I applaud her. I can't believe that anyone was so brave, to be honest.
Speaker 1:And even if she was, which, like you said, that she wasn't, but even now we have rich stars that we know that of their contracts, or they don't want to lose a TV series. We'll do things probably that they don't actually probably stand by it. I mean, I'll give you an example. I've gone vegan and I've just done a cheese commercial because I need the money. Right. So now, if I was actually famous people go, what, what kind of vegan does a cheese commercial? I tell you a broke vegan,
Speaker 2:Marilyn
Speaker 1:Didn't care about the money. So this is why I admire her because she really, and then when she left, this is what I find really hard for anybody who breaks away from the mold that they're in, which she did is when she did leave the Hollywood bubble of Fox of the stereotype blonde. She went to New York to study the method at the actor studio. And again, faced persecution and ridicule from people that thought she's not a real actress. She's a, so you've got this girl that doesn't belong anywhere. And I think part of her strength would be that I think Marilyn growing up felt she didn't belong anywhere. So that, that growing up to feel like I don't belong actually helped her because she knew how it felt to not belong. So when she didn't belong, she knew how to fight through because she's finding her, uh, her place. So sometimes it can help you if you've had a pretty rough start, it can give you a few extra skins. And I think she needed them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that's a really good point. And when she did go into the actor's studio, I mean, I spoke to people who, who were there before she arrived. And they were told, you know, Marilyn Monroe is going to be here, blah, blah, blah. And they, not everybody, but the people I spoke to were like, what, why are you letting this Hollywood actress then? And they really resented her coming into the studio because they had done all their auditions and everything else. And then she was just, you know, she was walking in, but she was walking in as a spectator. Um, but they still didn't appreciate it. And I spoke to one person who said, Oh, she came all dressed up. She had high heels on and all this sort of stuff. And everyone just looked though, like, what do you think you're doing? Um, but then after that, you know, she, she came sort of casually dressed, but you're right. She didn't feel like she fitted in when she was there. And it took a while for, for her to actually feel as though she was wanted. And, but despite that, she kept going back. I mean, she, you know, she started her lessons there in 1955 and she was also going to lease Dr. Berg's home. She would do private tuition with him. And she also did little sort of mini classes there without the groups of people. And that must have been terrifying. I mean, you York actors, uh, back in those days, you know, they were very powerful people who, who would just come out and say whatever was on their mind. And, and she, Marilyn was a very sensitive business. You know, she must have been in situations where maybe somebody hurt her feelings by the things that they said about her, her performance, or about the way she looked or anything like that. But she just kept on going because she wanted to better herself and she wanted to learn. And I think that's so admirable and really inspirational.
Speaker 1:It is. I mean, she is, it's so weird, her, the inspiration she has on me, and I've kind of become a bigger Merriman row fan in lockdown since I've not been playing Merredin Monroe, because I don't know of anyone who impersonates Merryman row, that's listening. And I'd love to ask Susan Griffis this as well. I should ask her actually, that when you break away from portraying Manimal row every day as a job, um, which I've had to do in lockdown, I suddenly fall in love with a woman because I'm not having to, it's like, it's like living up to something you can't live up to. I mean, I don't care how good you are as a minimum row impersonator. You're not married. You'll never come close to it. You know? And it's, and the fact that I've not been portraying her and having to like live up to this thing, I've got to actually know her again, which is so lovely because I've kind of gone like, wow, she's amazing because I'm reading more about her and what really turns me on in your book as, I mean, know, in a weird, creepy sexual way, but it made me excited. You never know how it goes. And nerdy, geeky stuff does excite me. I have to say. But, um, it's, it's when I found out that she I'm a big Oscar Wilde fan, and I went to all these exhibits when it was the anniversary of, um, of, um, of his recently. And I went to read in jail and, uh, I saw the ballot of writing jail, uh, one of the first additions and I saw the jail cell where he wrote that. And then I read in your book that she actually learns the, the lines of this off by heart and ballads of red in jail. And she loved Oscar Wilde. I'm not saying like, look, I'm actually mad at him. I'm reincarnated by saying that, what I'm saying is, is that I love that it's so relatable because if I met her, I'd be like, Oh my God, I love that too, because it's so heartbreaking and romantic about how the loss Levin and the way he feels there. And I thought, Oh my God, I wonder if that resonated with her as well, the way it resonated with me that she must, she's such a poet and I'm like, this is this I want to be loved by you booboo. BIDU Mr. President. And this is a girl that memorized the pellet of reading jail by Oscar Wilde. I mean,
Speaker 2:I really liked when I, when I was doing the book, I really liked learning stuff like that. And actually that, I can't remember the reporter's name, but he, I think it was maybe Thomas Wiseman. I'm not sure, but he interviewed her many times over the years. And one time when he was interviewing her and she talked about the red in jail, um, texts, and then a few years later he came back and she said, Oh, yes, I remember you. I was, we were talking about the red in jail tax. And, you know, it was obviously something that was important to her. And he, she, she showed him, her, her book collection and, you know, her poetry and all that kind of thing. Um, because all those things were inspired her to, and that's why I loved about when I was writing this book, that by the end of it, I wanted to, uh, read poetry and I wanted to read Shakespeare and I wanted to go to acting class, not what to do all of those things, because she just inspires me so much to, you know, to do those, those kinds of things. And that's why, um, there's, there's an appendix at the back of the book, which has like a list of the, um, the books that she read that I mentioned in the book or the, the, um, pay whites that she liked and the music she liked and all that kind of thing. So that people who feel inspired by the things that she did do in the course of this book, and then go out and do it themselves and, you know, and read all that stuff. And, um, I actually, my editor wasn't sure whether or not I should put that in. I don't know if it fits in. I was like, no, please let me just put it in. And so many people have messaged me and said, I'm so glad you put that list of, um, cultural stuff at the back, because you know, it really inspired me to go out and read those things for myself. So, yeah, I was really pleased about that.
Speaker 1:It's she, she's such a, to me, when you see that reading list, it flies in the face of the girl that is portrayed on the screen. And that's what we need to remember that she was an actress. This wasn't how you were seeing, she's just acting as Lorelei Lee. And I think that's kind of why, Oh, this sounds really horrible because my people, if my friends are saying, or maybe it's because I've locked down, but I don't know if it is, I think this is where I've found recently, the thought of going back to playing minimum row at parties and stuff is really bothering me because I feel like I don't want to play that Marilyn in anymore, which is why I get excited about my show that I'm doing about living as Marilyn and how it's been. But I just, you know, you can't play the real one row at a gig. I got so not with the burden of reading jail and go, right, right. Because look is this woman mental, and that's what it's so funny because there's another point in your book where you say she's split between two camps. There's one camp. That one had to be more glamorous and more, I don't know. I guess it's like a burlesque now, you know, very, very over the top and super glam. And then there's the other camp that wanted to, you know, not be so intellectual, be more fun or, and it's like, again, you're like stop telling this woman what to do.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yes. I mean, there was the report is that you would say that, you know, why is this glamor girl wanting to write poetry? And then there was also the people who'd be like, why does this poet want to now play a time ago? You know, you just, as you say, just let her be who she is. I mean, we all have many, many layers and, you know, some layers we have out on public display and other, the sort of deep insiders, and that was the same as Marilyn. And she, you know, she was, she wasn't a one dimensional past. And I think that's where some people find it hard because they just see a picture of her on a wall or a picture of her on the screen or whatever. And then they then say all that to Marilyn was that's, you know, that's the be all and end, all of her singing diamonds are a girl's best friend. That's the person that she was. And that's not true. She was many different people. Yes. She was lower Lilee on the screen, but she was always other people too inside her. And you have to, you have to accept that. And also she ha she had faults just like everybody else and things that she did that she wasn't, maybe wasn't completely proud of just like all of us, you know? So she was, she was a human being. And I think that's the thing that I was trying to get across more than anything in this book that she's an actual person and you'll know this because you've been there too. When, when you go to Westwood and see, you know, see how her grave, you suddenly realize this was a real person. I remember going there in, well, when the first time I went there in 1992 and just standing there going, gosh, this person I'd love for the past seven years is in, you know, in this place, she, it was a human being and it really sort of hit you when you see that. And so I wanted, I wanted that kind of same feeling with this book that people get to the end of it and go, gosh, she really was a human being. And I'm hoping that that's what happens with when Marilyn met the queen, because that whole story has got so many layers as well. And it really so far really shows Marilyn up as a real human being with many, many different, um, sides of her personality. So yeah. Hopefully, um, people will come away from the girl knowing that Marilyn was actually like one of us.
Speaker 1:I think that's so, you're so right. And I th I just so glad that you exist in the world, Michelle, because I'm your book, the girl. And like you say, with the, the, the Marilyn met the queen coming out, you really are. And with obviously you're private and undisclosed, but with these books, what you're doing is you, I mean, they they're like, they're like an anthology. They're like Lord of the rings Marilyn version, because there you're you're you do a biography, but then you're kind of going in depth. And we're S we're really going deep in, in, especially on this feminist thing, because obviously I haven't read the British one yet, but what, when I was reading it, I thought, cause I was also looking at, um, celebrities that we have now. I mean, some of Pasa and Nicole Smith that get compared with Marilyn, and I think they're completely different personally, but I think that when you play the dumb blonde and that's how you become famous, because we have to be honest with Marilyn, that's how she became famous for these sex symbol, dumb blonde roles. And it makes you money. And it makes you successful is that then the cross you have to bear is that then the, cause I find that even being a lookalike it's like, it was so why don't you do some in your own? Right. And in all fairness, there's millions of actors out there that are working in cafes and they're brilliant actors. Whereas I, before COVID was having a great career going all around the world. Yeah. Being Marilyn. But then I can't really sit in and go, Oh, I wish I wasn't myself because, um, you know, I am not, I chose that way. And it was gave me a good living. So Marilyn was made famous by playing the blonde. Was that really the cross that she's going to have to bear. And she'll never really escape it because it's like a deal with the devil. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And, and it it's unfair because, you know, she, she obviously started off playing dumb blondes, secretaries, dancers, those kinds of parts to get her break. And, but why people then have to pigeonhole her and say, well, no, now you you're in that area. Now you need to stay. There is, it's not fair to her. And you know,
Speaker 1:Yeah. I would argue, sorry, babe, go on. I would, I would argue it's because she's a woman and I don't want to pick on men or be like, Oh, we're they go again? Moaning. Because if you look at someone like Tom Hanks, I know he lived longer than Marilyn, you know, but he started off playing quite junkie films, like very bubble gummy, what you'd say, Malbin Bo films, right. And yet now he's won so many Oscars and prove that he's really an amazing actor. I mean, as soon as the Tom Hanks film comes out, we will go got to see this. And he really has, you know, gone from these little eighties, hemo films to a real actor. And I get the feeling that a women ever really able to do that if they've gone from bimbo films to, I can't, maybe you can think of an actress that's made that transition. I can't
Speaker 2:No, no, you're all right. I can't think of it either. And I think a lot of it has, does have to do with, with her being a woman. And I see that as well with the newspaper reports that I read. Um, I mean, especially the ones I've been meeting recently about, you know, her coming to England, the reporters who mainly are male, they'll describe her as, you know, the wiggle has landed and she wiggled and waggled her way across the airport. And I think, would you describe Clark Gable as wiggling and waggling across the, you know, the airport? Of course you wouldn't, it's very, it's very, very strange. Um, the, the terminology that people sort of put onto her, but, uh, yeah, I think a lot of it is to do with the fact that she is a woman. And back then too, you know, when she sent that short to do all these things, people were laughing. It was mainly because, you know, she was a woman and they, they classed her as being this little fluffy blonde. And they just thought that she was a joke and it's completely unfair and untrue
Speaker 1:The Brittany Spears. Um, w when you're saying about the way men talk to in interviews, I was watching the Brittany Spears documentary, um, last night, um, the one that the New York times made and they show old interviews. Now they're quite modern, you know, they're in our lifetime, they're not fifties. And these guys are saying to like a 19 year old, Brittany, let's talk about your breasts. And you're sitting there and you're looking at her and she's like, I'm sorry, what did you say? My Brittany, accent's terrible. But, and then they, they say to her about, you know, are you going to have sex? I, and I'm not what I mean, I think we've changed a lot now, but like you said, I don't think they would like talk to a guy and go, and these ones were about our underwear and it was very, very creepy. So it really, a lot of it hasn't really changed, but then there's a quote of Maryland's that people tend to put up. And it says as long as, uh, I don't mind it being a man's world, as long as I can be a woman in it and always stick, that means that she can be fluffy and sit on their knees. But I always take that as quite a double meaning. I always think that as long as I can be equal, like if it's a man's world, I need to be a woman. And it's like to be respected for that. Not just like, I'm going to be your play thing. Cause that you'd say I don't mind being a man's world, as long as I can be happy or rich or taken care of. But she says, as long as I can be a woman in it, I'd like to, that's a good point. Yeah. Because I know that she had that dark, like when that woman said, do you throw out you've grown as an actress? And she said, well, what do you mean in inches? So she definitely had that, you know, I'm sick of these questions and you talk about legally blonde, um, Reese Witherspoon, who's gone on to be like Marilyn, she's gone and had her own production company. And, and I always think that story of legally blonde, although Marilyn, Maura, wasn't a lawyer reminds me of her. It's like, you look at me and you think one thing, but look what I've done.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's true. That's true. And I think that that applies with, with many people, you know, um, regardless of who you are, people seem to, I don't, I see this happens to men, but with women, especially these sort of patients, how you into a certain thing. I mean, I I've spoken about this before. I worked a day job for 17 years before I was able to leave to fulfill my dreams and not everybody that I worked with, but a lot of people I worked with sort of put me into this category. Well, you're an assistant here. You're not ever going to be anything more than an assistant. Don't try to be anything more than assistant because that's what you are. And that really used to bug the hell out of me. And I, you know, if I talked about wanting to become a full-time writer, they, they would openly just laugh at me. And I remember I had my first book published when I was 25. And I remember saying to one of these people, well, I guess it, Kristy was pub to age 30 or something. And I said, well, you know, I now had one book published at age 25. So I'm, you know, I'm further ahead of the game. And then Agatha Christie was, they say, and she just burst out laughing, Oh, for goodness sake, Michelle. And it completely missed the point that I was trying to make, because she had just decided that, that I was no, nothing else than high resistant. And that would be the, be all and end all of it. And I having to prove people wrong. And I think that that's something that I have in common with Maryland, that, you know, they w they were trying to 20th century Fox. They were trying to say to her, well, no, you're not a serious actress. You just belong in musical and comedies. And she was like, well, no, I can do whatever I want, and I'm going to prove you wrong. And so that's, that side part is always inspired me, especially when I was stuck in that situation, you know, with people saying I couldn't do it. And I knew that I could. And for a long time it appeared that I was the only person who believed in me, but I thought if I don't believe in me, then what's the point. So I've, you know, I've just got to keep on going. And I think that that's what she did too. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's a very good point. If you, you have to believe in yourself because like you say, you don't know who else will, because you usually find people start believing in you when you're successful, but it's, didn't believe in yourself when you're, you know, Marilyn made those decisions on her own. Okay. With the help of Milton Greene's support for the first, um, financial support sometimes and emotional support. I mean, he was a big deal in her life. I don't want to like undermine what Milton green did, but he just gave her the confidence to do what she already knew she could do. And that's what I love about that. It's funny because I listened to an interview with Marlena Dietrich. Um, one of our last interviews, if anyone's never listened to it, you have to listen to it. It's her in her, uh, Paris apartment. And she wouldn't let anyone film her because she was old and she didn't want to be seen, but she's very tired. I think she's a little bit drunk. So if, if one's going to hate me for saying that, but she, they asked her she's a feminist and she says, no, I'm not a feminist. And she says, I hate feminism. She says, if you want to wear trousers, just wear them. Because I never knew till recently that wearing trousers in Paris was illegal. I never knew it. Yeah. It only changed in like the 1990s, which is crazy, but it actually was a law that just, nobody looked at it because the women of the day, like there's a famous picture that Madonna went onto copy of Marlena Dietrich, arriving in Paris, dressed as what people would say, dresses as a man. But she's basically wearing a suit, a big overcoat sunglasses on flanked by men wearing the same outfit and Donald copied it. Um, and I never knew the story behind this picture. And it was actually her arriving in Paris because she knew that wearing a man suit, a woman wearing trousers was actually illegal. So she was like, I'm not a feminist. I just do what I want. If I want to wear a suit, I'll wear a suit. If I want to do this, I'll do that. So it was interesting because obviously Marilyn and Marlena got on we friends, but, um, Norman Rustin said that he doubted she would join the, uh, liberation movement for women. And he doubted that she'd be identify as a feminist. And I find this interesting because I don't even like calling myself a feminist. What I like calling myself is a bit like Marilyn. I like, I like being a man's world if you want to call it that, but I want to be a woman in it. I like, I really love my female friends and I people like you that inspire me to go for your dreams and things like that. So do you need to call yourself a feminist? Would Marilyn need to be a feminist? Is this really making us like a gang that we don't really need? Or do we just need strong women that sh that do rather than say,
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I agree. And actually, um, I think I speak about this in the book that, um, yeah, Norman Rossman said that Marilyn would never have said that she was a feminist. And I completely agree with that because he's talking about the 1960s version of a feminist where, you know, it was expected that in to walk down the road with placards and, you know, it was the whole burn, your brought all that kind of thing. Marilyn would never have associated with that. And, but the way, if we look at, in terms of now, I think that she's, she's 100% a feminist because feminism now means to be equal to, to do what you want to do to, to be able to wear trousers. If you want to wear trousers, to be able to do all the things that men do, if you want to do them, or if you want to stay at home and raise a family, that's good too. That's still feminism because you've made that choice. And so it's all about the way that you view feminism. And it's like, McDonald's gave a speech. And it was a while ago where she was saying that people used to always say to her that she was, you know, she was bad for feminism because she was girly. And, you know, she, she did like, she did the sex book and all that kind of thing. And she said, well, in that case, I'll be a bad feminist because in other words, she's doing what she wants to do. And she's still here. She's a powerful woman, she's a trailblazer, she's, you know, girl power and all that stuff, which now is feminism. And it's just, it just all depends on the person's view of what feminist feminism should be. Because if I, if I was to say to somebody, Oh, I'm a feminist. They might go, Oh God, you know, if you want to burn your bra kind of thing, and it's not about that at all, it's just about the, the power to be who you want to be, whatever that is, you, you can be it and, and to empower other women to big up other women, to not knock down other women and, you know, put other people down to try and raise people up. That's all to do in mind, view of feminism. Um, but it's, it's a very, I think it's a very personal thing now with what you think, um, girl, power and feminism is, and, you know, some people are all still, you know, back in the, the sixties, thinking that it's all about, you know, marching down the street. And it really isn't in my view, it isn't, it's all about being exactly who you want to be at, which is what Maryland was fighting for. She was fighting for equality to be able to go to her acting classes, to be able to work with the people that she wanted to be, which is very powerful. And it's, you know, she was a trailblazer. And I think if you changed the word feminist to trailblazer, then I don't think many people would have a problem with her being described that way. That's my own personal view. Anyway,
Speaker 1:I think you're so right, because, um, this word feminist, I feel like it's become a slogan rather than a meaning. And like, when I see, like I saw, um, the prime minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau, I can't say Trudeau to do Trudeau to do. Um, and he was orientation saying, I'm a feminist. And I thought, well, that's just a label then isn't it. Because I agree with you that really it's about women being recognized and we support each other. And I still think women hold each other back. And I think a lot of that is fear or jealousy. I had a goal, a friend of mine write me recently is making music. And she said, I played it to a male friend. And he was quite mean about it. Now, I'll be honest. I listened to her music. It was amazing. Right. And I said, well, sometimes your friends are fearful. Sometimes they think, Oh my God, if they do really well that they might leave me behind or it reflects on them. And they think, well, I'm not achieved anything. So I'm going to make sure this person stays down with me. And she never saw it like that. And I think I used to have like issues of, you know, I wish I had done that or why I wish I could be like that, or I want to be like that. And, and I think a lot of that comes from maturity, but it's also come from my faith and going about how we label things. Every time something happens. If you follow me, you might know that I bang on about Jesus a bit. Right. But people now, whenever they see something religious, they, they send it to me for some reason, go look at these people. And I'm like, well, hang on a minute. Just because I believe in God doesn't mean I believe in the way they act. And I find, I find with feminism, it can be a fight, which is not what it's meant to be. It's like, well, that's not very feminist. Is it doing that? Or like you say, it should be a choice if you want to stay at home and be a mother and not go out and have your own career, your careers with your children. That's your choice. Feminism is about not being told what to do. It's about making choices. And if that woman decides that she wants to, you know, get, be a, stay at home mom, or she wants to be a blessed dancer, that's the two spectrums, you know, and it, to me, it's her choice and we shouldn't judge it. And I still find that women we tend to, and I think you would have it myself. I try every day to do one thing better than I was the day before. And it's an, even with Marilyn gone, I mean, there's a bit that night I know in your book that Natasha lights has said that millionaire sent minimum row a car, um, for sex. And she said, no, send the car back. Isn't that amazing? And you're like, well, no, because a lot of women would do that. And if she wanted to keep the car, that was her choice to, and again, it's like, well, if she'd slept with this man for a car, she's a horrible person. Well, no, I'm kind of glad she didn't because I wouldn't either. But if she had, does that make her less of a person in our eyes or what, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:It's yeah, exactly. All about choice. Yeah. Everything's about choice. And I think there's just so much judgment in the world, especially the past year or so. The judgment from some people about all sorts of different things just drives me insane. And then you think, well, all of the judgment judgment that Marilyn must've faced, you know, just because she wanted to do something different, it must have been hellish. And I know that, you know, talking about women, empowering women, that I know women who, there's one person who follows me around on Amazon reviewing every single one of my books. And she hates every single one of my books. And I go, why are you still here? Why are you, you know, why do you have to say how much you hate me? Just go with a, if you hate me, it's not an empowering thing for you to do that. And it's, it's it's are they, I think it says more about that person than it does about me. It it's just strange. And I think that, you know, I could never imagine being that way. And I, and if, if somebody needs my help or they want me to inspire them in some way, then I help them. And I've got, you know, even if I say just one sentence that helps somebody feel better than, than I'll do it. It's not in my nature to knock, to publicly knock people down. And I don't understand that. And you know, neither did Marilyn. She faced it all the time too. And she was always very giving with her time. And, you know, she, she was supportive of, uh, different women and friends and people. I found out talking to people who met Marilyn and ankle food green. She was so supportive of the people who came to talk to her over the gate. She loved all those people. And I think, you know, a little bit of kindness goes a long way.
Speaker 1:I, I can back you up on that because number one, obviously I've known you for God. How many years now? Way too many, but you've been there to me. We're not, we're not gonna go into it, but you've been there for me. It really terrible times in my life. And I've had personal tragedies and stuff like that. And you've really been there to really help me. And also going back to Marin's generosity, Natasha lights has said about the turning down the car from a millionaire, but she said she sold her mink to help me with the hospital bill. You know, she's like Marilyn was giving, but it's funny you talk about when you achieve something and someone hating on you, um, it says in your book about, uh, because she didn't want to be called a dumb blonde people, thought she was a diva, had delusions grandeur and watching Brittany Spears last night. She said like, I can't hear something or I don't want this. And they said, Oh, diva. And she's she just lost it and said, I'm not a diva. I just want it to be right. And I do feel with women and other women are to blame for this as well. It's not just men. I'm not going to sit here. And man bash, when women achieve something, like you say, you've achieved your book and someone will come on and be mean about it. And I've got a son I've had mean comments on, on YouTubes. And, and we know that people can be quite mean, but really it is, I think, directed at women that just break out of their box and they want like, get back in your box. And we've, we've really got to support each other, even if we don't agree with certain things, uh, someone we don't, it's not us to, to bring them down. Do you know what I mean? And that's what Marilyn faced. It was constantly. Oh, who does she think she is trying to do her own company? Who does she think she is trying not to be dumb. Who does she think? She, and it's like, well, she thinks she's married in one row and she can do what she wants.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah. I completely agree. You know, we really have to have to look at the world in a, in a different way. And the Marilyn was so forward thinking. And, you know, I feel like if you picked her up from 1955 and dropped her into to now, she would be completely relevant. I think that's, you know, that's part of the reason why her meth Rico's on the way it does, because she was way ahead of her time. And she was just an amazing person. And I think, you know, the more that I can do to, to show people that the better, and the funny thing is I was talking to a lady the other day, I was interviewing her for my new book. And she said, you know, everyone always remember, no matter what I do my life, everyone always remembers me for working with Marilyn. And I said, well, that's the same as with me because I've written 20 books now. But everybody, when I, you know, when I pop off, everyone will remember me as the mountain also. And, and I, I'm proud of that. I'm really, really proud of that because there was people to be associated with Marilyn Monroe. And if people remember me as being the, the lady who, you know, portrayed Marilyn as a human being in her books, then power on and I'm all for it.
Speaker 1:Um, and I think also I remember something that Diana said, and it's so poignant when she said they they're scared of me. Cause they wonder where I get my strength. And I think that with Berlin, they were Marilyn and had this immense strength to, to survive what she came from and to survive that Hollywood system. And, you know, we know, um, we don't know what happened at the end, but we know she passed at 36 with your tragedy. But I really, what I love about your book is I want to remember the Marilyn that she truly was. And like you say, in the girl's, self-taught, self-made so true, so true. Um, Michelle, thank you so much for this. This is one of my longest podcast, but it's like, you I'm so passionate about this part of her life, but this book, the goal it's, you've just got to get it. And I love the size of it. I love the size of it. It's like just pocket, pocket size, but like, I don't know. It just feels like a little like academic book. I love it. And everyone should go and buy it. You can get it on Amazon and all the usual places. So, and, and I'm in it. Can I just do a little self prem silver? Self-promotion I'm so happy. Cause I'm in it. And Susan Griffiss is in it. Um, I've got all the goals are in this, right? It's uh, Linda carriage and like so many people, how Marilyn is the Emma Watson's Michelle Williams and all these people, like you say that passing the torch on. And I love that. And it's just beautiful. Michelle, thank you so much again for agreeing to come on because I could talk to you forever. Cause it's just like the museum of Marin in your brain.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're very welcome. Whenever you want me to come on, I'll always come off.
Speaker 1:Is there a website where people can check out your other books because um, like, you know, people who started reading your books? Cause I know a lot of people write to me and said, I, you know, I never know about Michelle and I'm so glad that listening to her I've gone and bought her books now. And so is there a site that people can go to and see your books and see your writings that you've done? So
Speaker 2:Yeah, they can go to my website, which is Michelle Morgan dot co.uk.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. And we're so excited for 2022. And not just because of the end of Corona, but because your book was so excited for it. Thank you again, Michelle. You're an absolute star.
Speaker 2:You're welcome. I should just say if anyone wants to connect with me on social media, I'm on Instagram and Twitter. I'm at M M writer, girl. Yeah. Great.
Speaker 1:Send us some encouraging posts rather than insulting ones, please.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Thank you, Michelle. Appreciate it. You're welcome. Bye.